Irrevocable Trusts Made Simple

Speaker 1 – 00:00
In 2025, the federal estate and gift tax exemption is 15 million person. Those limits are as high as they’ve ever
been. 10 years. 15 years. And it could very easily be lower than the numbers we’re talking about now, which means
more money would be subject to estate tax. If you didn’t do this kind of.
Speaker 2 – 00:16
Planning, it’s so important what stuff you put in the trust. And that’s the whole purpose of this podcast, because
those trusts, you can put stuff in there that avoids taxes completely. You can put stuff in there that’s a tax
nightmare. There’s two types of trust, revocable trust and the irrevocable trust.
Speaker 1 – 00:31
So what assets are going to grow? Life insurance is the number one example.
Speaker 2 – 00:34
Do not put a inside of an irrevocable trust. Worst decision ever. Well, Ben, so today’s estate planning environment
prevent. It presents a lot of opportunity with the limits being so high. So, you know, walk us through what are the
limits and specifically, what are the. Let’s cut through the noise. You know, what are the different kind of trusts that
are out there? What type of trusts actually matter for these limits and what type of trust don’t?
Speaker 1 – 01:03
Yeah, just taking a step back right now, the. In 2025, the federal, state, and gift tax exemption is 15 million person.
So if you’re married, it’s $30 million. You and your spouse as a household, what that means is you can pass with
that $30 million number before you’re realizing any estate tax and estate tax is 40 is a flat 40% on any assets that
are above that level. Now, any money that goes to charity is completely tax free, and any money that goes to your
spouse is tax free. So we’re really talking, Matt, about the death of the second spouse. You know, assets that are
moving to the next generation, if they’re over that $30 million limit, you’re paying 40% estate tax on whatever that
amount is. And like you said, those limits are as high as they’ve ever been. 15 million person.
Speaker 2 – 01:54
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Yeah. So 30 million is a couple. So let’s talk about, you know, what’s the purpose of a trust? So there’s two types of
trust. There’s a revocable trust and irrevocable trust. And regardless of what type of trust we’re talking about, one
of the main reasons why you should use a trust, you manage, protect, control assets, decide how and when the
wealth passes errors, reduce estate taxes, or achieve charitable, business, or family goals. So just as an example,
if to dumb this down, if you had $2 million in kids. And you pass the money to kids. No, trust that money. If it
doesn’t have a direct beneficiary on it’s going to go through a process called probate. And so what probate means
is a court system’s now involved.
Speaker 2 – 02:42
They first make sure are there any creditors or debtors, they get their money first and that it takes month long,
months long process. Maybe your kids don’t know what they’re doing, so they have to hire, you know, someone
expensive to help them to go out. Now everything’s really a legal court document. And so now your kids could be
subjects of predators, you know, with, if they’re young and have that much money.
Speaker 1 – 03:07
So it’s technically public record as well.
Speaker 2 – 03:08
Yep, absolutely. So a revocable trust, if you do nothing, you know, is going to shield that process. If your assets are
labeled in a revocable trust, you can change your mind any day, meaning you can change who it goes to. Who’s the
trustee if you die, that at least we avoid the probate conversation. And the money can then turn into an irrevocable
trust when you die. So if you have young kids and you’re like, well, I want my uncle to oversee this, or a corporate
trustee to oversee this until at least my kids are 30. They can use the money for a hem standard. So health,
education, maintenance and support anytime. But then it’s going to be interest only, maybe till they’re 35. You can
lay out the grand work the framework for the rules of the money.
Speaker 2 – 03:59
It’s basically how you’d want your kids to use the money responsibly when you’re not here. That’s the whole idea
behind the trust. But a revocable trust really doesn’t do anything from a estate planning perspective. It’s all
included in your estate. So if you’re worth $2 million and one and a half is in a revocable trust, half a million is out,
doesn’t matter. All your estate’s still 2 million. So the purpose of this podcast is to talk about an irrevocable trust.
Now, irrevocable trust means you’re gifting the money while you’re living, and once it goes in there, you’re assigning
control to a trustee. Now, you could do what’s called a spousal life access trust, which is one of the best of both
worlds, where your spouse is in control of the money and the spouse can use that money for the benefit of you.
Speaker 2 – 04:44
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And her or your partner, no matter what, if it’s a traditional irrevocable trust and it’s someone else that trustee is in
control of. Any changes that are made once you’ve put the money or assets in there, you cannot make the
changes. The trustee would have to make the changes. So let’s talk about.
Speaker 1 – 05:06
So just real quick back to that original example. If you had $2 million in your estate, you moved 1.5 million into the
irrevocable trust. You have 500 in your name. Eventually when you pass, your estate’s going to say 500,000. Right.
Because that money that was in the trust is therefore out of your estate.
Speaker 2 – 05:22
The irrevocable trust, if it was irrevocable trust. Yeah. So there’s three real main roles that you need. So Ben, walk
us through those. The grantor, trustee and beneficiary. You know, what do these mean and what’s the importance
behind them?
Speaker 1 – 05:34
Yeah, so the grantor is the person who actually creates the trust and is the one transferring the assets into it.
Whether that’s life insurance, investment account. Again, we’ll get into that in a little bit more. But they’re the one
who sets the terms. So who’s the beneficiary? How do distributions work when the trust ends, what the provisions
are, things like that. They’re the ones who are actually giving up ownership and control of the assets once they’re
transferred. They still may pay income tax on any of the trust income if it’s structured as a grantor trust. But that’s
basically the one who’s in control of it is the grantor. The trustee is the person or sometimes the institution that’s
responsible for managing the assets inside the trust. It could be an individual.
Speaker 1 – 06:15
So whether that’s a family member, an advisor, a friend, it can also be a corporate trustee. Sometimes you see a
bank or a trust company listed as trustee for the assets. The trustee has a fiduciary duty to always act in the best
interest of the trust beneficiaries and then to follow the trusted instructions exactly as noted. They’re the ones that
handle all the investing, the record keeping. An irrevocable trust has to file its own tax return. So they handle all the
filings there and then they’re in charge of the distributions and the requests that are related to that.
Speaker 1 – 06:54
Then the beneficiary, you know, pretty self explanatory, but that’s the person or the group that’s receiving the
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benefits from the trust, whether that’s income in the form of Dividends or interest or whether that’s principal
distributions, that could be an individual, it could be multiple individuals, it could be a charity. The beneficiaries
don’t actually own the trust assets. They just have a right to benefit from them. So they’re not included in their
estate from that once somebody’s in the trust, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 – 07:21
Absolutely. So real quick, before we go through the, you know, what assets should go, what assets should stay out,
let me talk about the difference between a grantor and a non grantor trust. Real quick. So a grantor, because once
you establish an irrevocable trust, the rich person, the person like putting the money in, can decide the tax status.
Right. So a grantor trust, if someone’s worth 50 million bucks and they move $15 million into the irrevocable trust,
they can make it a grantor trust. So if they want to maximize that $15 million, if that’s made up of stocks and some
interest bearing stuff, that stuff’s going to produce tax reporting every year. And so a grantor trust means that the
per the rich person could pay that the tax liability.
Speaker 2 – 08:06
So if it’s $15 million and let’s say there’s, let’s say they’re smart and they put in the mostly what they should in the
account, but you still owe $15 million. 1% of the account, $150,000 gets reported as income, 150,000 would flow
back to the rich person’s tax return. And so all $15 million would stay in the trust plus the growth. So the absolute
maximum amount would be passed on to the beneficiaries when he dies. Well, it’s our technically already passed
on because it’s irrevocable trust means it’s a completed gift. So this is intentional if you’re trying to maximize how
much tax free money is going to your beneficiaries. Now a non grantor trust means, okay, I’m giving the 15 million
and it’s on the trust to pay the taxes.
Speaker 2 – 08:52
So non grantor trust means the tax itself has to perform its own Form 1041, its own trust tax return. And it’s very
compressed back. It’s, I mean you go in the highest, the 37% rate, you know, around 15 plus of income, 15,000 plus
of incomes. Hit that pretty quick. So the reason I want to bring this up is it’s so important what stuff you put in the
trust. And that’s the whole purpose of this podcast. Because those trusts, the government knows they’re not
Getting a second bite at the apple. Once the money’s in there, it’s out of your estate. They’re not attacking 40% of
that. That 15 million could grow to a hundred million. And a hundred million is all going to the beneficiary tax free.
So while the money’s in there, the government’s attacking at the highest tax bracket.
Speaker 2 – 09:35
So what you put in there, you can put stuff in there that avoids taxes completely. You can put stuff in there that’s a
tax nightmare. So let’s talk about what goes, let’s go back and forth here. What is ideal and what is not ideal. So
let’s first talk about what should go into an irrevocable trust. Ben, you start us out with number one. Yeah.
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Speaker 1 – 09:52
First thing would be life insurance. This is one of the most common things that you see owned by a trust because
you pay premiums on a life insurance policy and then when you die, the death benefit pays out tax free. So super
high level, you want assets.
Speaker 2 – 10:08
That are going to grow.
Speaker 1 – 10:08
Kind of like you said, if you put something for 50 million, it grows to 100 million. That 100 completely avoids estate
tax. So what assets are going to grow? Life insurance is the number one example. Death benefit pays out when
you die, everyone dies. You know that benefit’s going to pay out. And that entire death benefit amount is out of your
taxable estate if it’s owned by a trust. So if you, there’s a, you know, five million dollar life insurance policy and it’s
out of your estate, you’re avoiding 40% estate tax on that value. So life insurance we see oftentimes in a trust and
then the trustee is the one owning the policy or paying the premiums, often via potentially your annual exclusion.
Right now that’s 19,000 in 2025.
Speaker 2 – 10:53
So a lot of beneficiaries per beneficiary, kids. You can do 3,57,000 a year into the trust, then you can use that
57,000 to buy a permanent life insurance policy. So let’s talk about, I want to go drill down a little bit more detail on
this. So the term whole life or permanent universal life, whatever. So if you do, a lot of times we recommend a term
life insurance policy should be inside of irrevocable life insurance trust. And ilit. And the reason for this, if, let’s say
a client’s worth, you know, let’s say it’s a high income earning physician, like a neurosurgeon making a million
bucks, they’re worth 15 million bucks, but their Life insurance, they have a term life insurance policy that’s worth 10
million. The spouse, they have five kids, spouse has $6 million of life insurance.
Speaker 2 – 11:40
And, and they’re rapidly accumulating money like they’re saving a ton. So they’re, if they die today, the 15 million
between the houses and investments plus the 10 million in the life insurance. Now life insurance is tax free from
an income perspective, it’s not tax free from estate if you die perspective, if you’re above the limits, if you die under
the limits, it’s tax free. If you die over the limits, it’s includable as part of that total 30 million dollar bucket. So in
this example, this neurosurgeon, 15 million plus 10 of the term life plus 6 on the spouse, we’re at 31 million. So if
they don’t do any trust planning, 30 million goes to the kids tax free. The other million that’s above the 34 hundred
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grand is gone.
Speaker 2 – 12:23
So is it worth setting up an irrevocable life insurance trust just to hold half of the term life insurance? Absolutely.
Because every year that neurosurgeon family accumulates money, they’re going above and be above. And if, God
forbid, something happens along the way, you know, let’s say fast forward, they’re worth 40 million. And out of the
40, 15 is just term life insurance.
Speaker 1 – 12:42
If they die.
Speaker 2 – 12:43
So they’re ruining that worth 25, having 10 in there. It means everything’s tax free. Everything that’s left in the 30
million that’s left in their estate is under the exemption, the 10 million, because they put it in the trust that’s out of
the state. So now $40 million goes tax free versus if they don’t. 30 million is tax free. The 10 million above is taxed
at 40%. $4 million is wiped off the table.
Speaker 1 – 13:06
Exactly. And keep in mind we’re doing all these calculations with the limits as high as they have ever been. Right,
30 million. We’ve, you know, if you die in 10 years, 15 years, who knows what that limit will be? I mean this is as
high as it’s ever been. It could very easily be lower than the numbers we’re talking about now, which means more
money is, you know, technically out of your estate and more money would be subject to estate tax if you didn’t do
this kind of planning.
Speaker 2 – 13:29
Okay, so the whole life or the universal life. This is great because this isn’t just like a temporary mandate like the
term life insurance that expires in 20 years like this is going to be a permanent death benefit. Like you mentioned,
you can use the exclusions. The premium amount to five kids five times 19. That’s 95,000 a year. You could put
into a policy that’s probably going to purchase, you know, at least seven or eight million dollars of permanent life
insurance and that’s immediately established and that’s going to grow if structured properly. And that doesn’t
mean that’s what you should do. We’re just talking about options. But that would be a tax free way. No taxes. You
get the money in the trust. It’s just under that kind of like a 401ks limit of what you can fund.
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Speaker 2 – 14:11
A gifting has a limit of what you can fund. That doesn’t affect your lifetime limits. That’s an easy one. So that’s the
life insurance. That’s number one. So number two is investment accounts. And I want to say specifically
investment accounts are great. However, we prefer individual stocks and a direct index platform because if you
have a mutual fund in a irrevocable trust and that mutual fund spits out capital gain distributions, it’s a nightmare.
You know, if it’s short term and, or if it’s interest, it’s going to be taxed at 37%.
Speaker 1 – 14:40
So it’s a nightmare because you as the investment account owner don’t have control of when that mutual fund
manager is making trades inside of the fund. So they could be kicking off a capital gain or selling a fund and
transitioning to a new fund and you have no control over it. And again, like you said in a Trust, those that 37% tax
rate comes really quickly. So you just don’t have that control.
Speaker 2 – 15:04
You throw a million dollars in a mutual fund, there they have the manager decides, I want to rebalance. We’re too
high in tech stocks and we’re going to sell these. Often you didn’t use a cent, you didn’t spend a cent. Suddenly you
have a $200,000 capital gain distribution. So it’s short term. Maybe you’re going to owe $70,000 in taxes. Like
what? I didn’t even Mike your million dollars even grow in some cases. I didn’t use any of the money. Why do I owe
tax? Well, that’s the mechanics of mutual fund. Do not put a mutual fund inside of an irrevocable trust. Worst
decision ever. ETFs much better. The best thing, have a stock portfolio that’s direct index that mirrors an index
mirrors like what an ETF does, that diversification Asset allocation, tax loss harvest in it.
Speaker 2 – 15:46
Ideally you’re not paying any taxes because you’re not paying taxes on stocks unless you sell them. And in the
direct index you’re actually tax loss harvesting. So you’re creating and those will flow through back the way they
would on a regular return, especially if it’s a grantor trust. So you know gains can get offset by losses and you’re
still getting those index returns while you do. So we have a whole podcast specifically on direct indexing that is
literally a program that’s, it’s like a match made in heaven for an irrevocable trust. We want the best investments in
irrevocable trust, that stock oriented, growth oriented and plus the irrevocable trust you want something that’s
going to grow.
Speaker 2 – 16:24
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If you use your exemption, you want that 15 to turn into 30 to turn into 60 if you’re really young, maybe to turn into
120 because all that money is out of your estate. So you’re not only you’re not paying ideally not paying tax along
the way. If you’re, if you have a really good tax loss harvesting strategy, you’re not, you’re killing paying taxes when
you die as well. Now the only argument against putting a stock aside with trust is if you die now you get a step up
in basis if it’s out of your estate. But if you’re getting a 40% haircut on that, who cares? And if you’re tax loss
harvesting you’re naturally stepping up your basis as you tax lost harvest and realize gains that at a net zero tax
result.
Speaker 2 – 17:00
Okay so those are by far I would say 90% of the time what we recommend and business interest I should say is, is
heavily in there. So I would say life insurance, investment accounts, business, if you own a business, privately
owned business, move that into trust can sometimes be a no brainer. Match that with qsbs. It’s like you’re avoiding
all kinds of taxes. But more common non business owners than what’s number three that we see.
Speaker 1 – 17:25
Yeah we see a lot of real estate and now that’s not really including a primary residence because primary residence
if you invest in a trust you can lose certain tax breaks like the homestead exemption or a capital gains exclusion,
things like that. So really like a vacation home. If you have a rental property it makes a lot of sense to maybe move
that into a trust depending on your situation. There’s a lot of asset protection and just general estate planning
benefits that you can have by moving a Non primary residence into a trust ownership.
Speaker 2 – 17:55
Yep. And we talked about the business interest already. But this can be huge because especially if you’re operating
the business, let’s say, and you’re planning on doing the next 20 years, you move 10% of your business interest in a
trust, that Trust actually get 10% of the profits, which is a good thing because then you’re naturally, you’ve used
your gift exemption one time and then the trust is going to build up heavily over time as well. So you get the best of
both worlds. If you’re still operating or if you move it in at a low valuation, then suddenly, you know, a couple years
down the line, it sells for a bigger valuation. Maybe you’ve moved a million dollars of your exemption and suddenly
it’s selling for 5 million.
Speaker 2 – 18:29
It only costs you 1 million of your exemption to get in and now you have 5 million out of your estate. Exactly. Then
the last thing would be, you know, high growth or unique assets. So this could be startup shares, crypto, you know,
private investments. Not for example, if you have a friend that started up like a med tech startup or something. You
invested 50 grand there and it’s expected if it hits, to hit 10x. That could be something, you know, maybe even if
you have enough kids, if you have three kids, you just use your lifetime exemption.
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Speaker 2 – 18:57
You use your freebie, the 19 times 3, you move that 50,000 in there and then if it hits a 10x or you’ve, you know, you
haven’t used Eddie, your exemption, you’re under the gifting limits and then suddenly you have half a million dollars
out of your state that then can get invested in the direct index platform. Hopefully that’s in a slat so you or your
spouse have access to that even while you’re living. Get the best of both worlds there.
Speaker 1 – 19:15
Yeah, I would say just biggest thing here, assets that you think are going to grow and the timing on this. Try to do
this if you can. While these exemption limits are so high, there’s just no guarantee that they’re going to stay as high
as they are right now.
Speaker 2 – 19:27
No question. So let’s talk about the absolute worst things you could put into an irrevocable trust. Man. What’s
number one?
Speaker 1 – 19:34
Number one for me is just a qualified retirement account like an IRA or a 401k. You can’t transfer that into a trust
without triggering any sort of income tax. Easiest way to do this would be instead just name the trust as a
beneficiary or excuse me, name the IRA or 401k as a benef on the IRA.
Speaker 2 – 19:54
Name the benef. We know it’s what you meant.
Speaker 1 – 19:56
We’re cutting that up. But keep it in, keep it in.
Speaker 2 – 20:01
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No, it’s good, go ahead.
Speaker 1 – 20:01
Instead it’s important to name the trust as a beneficiary of the IRA or the IRA that’s holding an old 401k balance,
that’s going to be a lot cleaner and you’re avoiding any of that tax.
Speaker 2 – 20:12
Yeah. And just to further your point, Ben, not only if someone wanted to move their IRA into a trust, not only if
you’re under 60, you’re paying the tax, ordinary income tax plus a 10% penalty. You literally have to rip it out and
then put it in. Dumbest idea ever. And if you name the trust as the beneficiary, you have to be careful with the
Secure 2.0 act because of the, you know, the rule of the 10 years, you have to get the money out. So the trust has
to be structured properly to fulfill the requirements where the money has to be out of there in 10 years. Now with
the Secure 2.0 act, so I’d say second one would be primary residence.
Speaker 2 – 20:45
There are sometimes if you’re like Medicaid planning, like asset spend down planning if your spouse has died, if
you want to protect like an asset protection trust or use case, but in general, not your primary house shouldn’t be
moved into your local trust because you’re going to lose control, some tax breaks could be lost, et cetera. That’s
not a 100% black or white don’t move. But if you’re a high net worth individual, your primary residence, probably not
a highly appreciating asset, there’s lots of other assets would be a greater fit for you. So what’s number three?
Speaker 1 – 21:17
Yeah, just in general, bank accounts, cash reserves, assets that you feel like you need for daily living, you don’t
want to move those into an irrevocable trust because you’re just giving up control of those assets. So you want to
retain those for liquidity, for taxes, for emergencies, things like that. You don’t want that necessarily in a trust. And
having a trustee oversee any of that.
Speaker 2 – 21:38
Yeah, no, I’d say last but not least, it’s probably obvious assets with debts or liens on them, it may trigger due on
sale clauses. It’s administrative nightmare in cases that’ll be a, that’d be a no go as well. So. Okay, well, just
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wrapping it up. So I think a couple key takeaways. So you know, the purpose of a trust, control, ownership benefit
among, you know, distinct parties are basically, if something happens to you’re making sure that your wishes for
your family or kids are protected, making sure they’re protecting against other risks that are out there. You’re
irrevocable with trust in general, you’re trading flexibility for long term tax and asset protection. With the exception
of a slat, you can get the best of both worlds. And then let’s talk about this new tax code.
Speaker 1 – 22:22
Ben.
Speaker 2 – 22:23
So if you give us an example. If run to the 15, then let’s say now, right now it’s set in the tax code, but let’s say in 10
years you use 5 million and the exemption goes down to 5 million. What does that mean for you? What’s the
result?
Speaker 1 – 22:39
It means you, you’ve basically used your exemption, right? So you don’t have the ability to go back and retroactively
say like, hey, 10 years ago this thing was 15 million. So I, I, I can’t, I, I can’t give another 10 million. That’s why you
need to use these exemption limits while they’re so high. Now there’s no retroactive gifting saying, hey, like, you
know, the limit used to be 15 million. Can I go back? No, that you can’t. So that’s why it’s so important while these
limits are so high. If you are considering this type of planning to really consult with your estate attorney.
Speaker 2 – 23:09
And I would say two use cases if you’re high net worth, young, high income already high net worth, but like you
don’t have an estate planning problem today. Let’s say your NET Worth’s like 5 million, but you’re in your like early
40s and you’re just crushing it. And, and your expected net worth’s going to be well above that. Our
recommendation is don’t move like a lump sum in, let’s start planning through cash flows. If you have kids, the
lifetime exemptions. If you have two kids, let’s use the 19 and 19 that you can do, let’s use the 19 and19 that your
spouse can do. Let’s use that.
Speaker 1 – 23:39
And so just taking a step back, just so we’re clear, that 19,000 person, that’s the annual exclusion limit right now in
2025, that means that I can give you 19,000 without having to file what’s called a Form 709. I don’t, it’s this big filing
thing. There’s no gift tax reporting. It doesn’t count towards Our lifetime limit. So that’s the limit that we have to get
up to without having to deal with any sort of reporting. That’s why it’s called that freebie.
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Speaker 2 – 24:05
Yeah, I give 19,000, $1. I’m filling out that form. If I’m feeling, give them 19,000 or less. No form, the freebie. So if
you’re young and you expect to have an estate planning problem, you know, slats would be a good. If you’re
married, two kids, the husband’s putting in 38 a year, 19 to 19 for each kid, the wife’s putting in 19 to each other’s
slats, which they’ll have control of if they don’t need. It’s out of your estate, it’s asset protected, it’s direct index, it’s
super tax efficient, as it would be if it was in your estate. Those are no brainers. If you have the cash flow, if you
are.
Speaker 2 – 24:36
The other thing is, if you’re high net worth, if you’re above that $30 million now, or let’s say you’re 50 or 100 million,
is making the decision, does it make sense to use your and your spouse’s 15 million if you haven’t already use that
30 million, do the estate planning today, get the money out of your estate, because then all the appreciation is out
of your estate forever and you’re avoiding that 40% and whatever’s left, you and your spouse spend down. And the
benefit of that really is two things compounding interests out of your estate. Plus, if limits go down, you’ve
grandfathered yourself into one of the highest estate planning environments that we’ve seen. So any questions on
this, please reach out.
Speaker 2 – 25:17
We’re happy to do a free consultation with you if you’re not already an existing client and walk through what would
be the best use of an irrevocable trust if it makes sense for your individual situation?