Fixed Income for High-Net-Worth Investors: Where to Put Your Safe Money

Speaker 1 – 00:00
There’s a lot of clickbait out there right now about Treasuries, about gold, about interest rates. Where do you put
your safe money?
Speaker 2 – 00:06
But the biggest thing that you need to be thinking about with your safe money is can I have it accessible whenever
I need it?
Speaker 1 – 00:12
If you’re a high net worth investor, you know, should you be purchasing your own bonds, like individual bonds?
We’re going to cover all topics as it relates to fixed income investments.
Speaker 2 – 00:21
The main purpose of this is not yield chasing, but making sure that the liquidity is available whenever the time
comes.
Speaker 1 – 00:26
You look at stock investments over one year periods, there’s going to be one out of every four years where maybe
you lose money instead of gain money.
Speaker 2 – 00:35
I think that when we think about fixed income bonds, there’s really three main factors that you have to consider.
Speaker 1 – 00:41
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A good lifetime financial plan is you only realize gains, right? And to do that you need to have a plan that works for
you, not a plan that’s dependent on what the market does or doesn’t do.
Speaker 2 – 00:48
You want your advisor and your team to like do what’s important and do the financial planning, the estate planning,
the taxes, all the other stuff. And like that is something that you just doesn’t need to be a high cost or complexity.
Speaker 1 – 01:03
There’s a lot of clickbait out there right now about Treasuries, about gold, about interest rates. Where do you put
your safe money? Today we’re going to talk about, you know, what is best. Should you be invested in the bond
market? Is it best to be individual bonds or is it best to be in an ETF or a mutual fund? We’re going to cover all
topics as it relates to fixed income investments.
Speaker 2 – 01:26
Many high net worth investors are always looking for the highest yield in their safe money, whether that’s cash,
bonds or anything outside of the equity market. And we’re going to talk about today why that stuff is important.
But the biggest thing that you need to be thinking about with your safe money is can I have it accessible whenever
I need it? And that would be in hard times if something goes wrong with stock market, interest rates, et cetera. The
main purpose of this is not yield chasing, but making sure that the liquidity is available whenever the time comes.
Speaker 1 – 01:56
Well, James, excited to chat about this. So you know, let’s break down just in general, what is the, what does the
bond market look like and what are the, you know, what are the reasons someone would have bonds in general?
Speaker 2 – 02:07
Yeah, I think, I mean the main reason is, you know, our opinion is Bonds are held for financial planning reasons. So
what does that actually mean? Any sort of liquidity need in the short term. So if we think, you know, we use two
examples. If you’re in your 30s and you don’t have anything upcoming, you know, as in a house purchase, etc. And
most of your money is being saved for long term is not really a huge need for bonds. You want to be invested in
equities, you’re going to crush inflation, get good long term returns.
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Speaker 2 – 02:40
And then the flip side of that, if you’re, you know, later in life and maybe you’re financially independent or getting
close to financial independence and you want some sort of money available that you could need in the short term,
that would be a use case for having bonds, mainly financial planning reasons.
Speaker 1 – 02:56
No, that’s great. I mean, I think, you know, the reality is just to set the tone, like if someone’s, when you go to use
your money, the goal is, you know, to never lose money, right? And so a gain is only a gain if you realize it and a
loss is only a loss if you realize it. So a good lifetime financial plan is you only realize gains, right? And to do that
you need to have a plan that works for you, not a plan that’s dependent on what the market does or doesn’t do. So
in just as an example, someone’s retired in 2022, right? And let’s just say they have, you know, $2 million, they’re a
6040 investor, 1.2 million in equities, 800,000 in bonds.
Speaker 1 – 03:33
And let’s just say they’re kind of like in a five to six year duration portfolio in 2022, not only were equities down, but
bonds dropped 13 to 14%. If you look at this like the AG that, you know, US index was down 13% in 2022. And the
reason for that is interest rates climbed so quickly that, you know, if you put a $800,000 in bonds and it was a five
year duration and five years, if those bonds were good quality bonds, you’d have collected your interest plus got
your principal back. But what if you did that in 2021 and 2022?
Speaker 1 – 04:06
You had to sell those, you’d have had to sell them that moment at a 13% loss because no one would want to buy
your bonds that you bought paying 3% over five years when they could go get a bond paying 5% over five years. So
for someone to be attracted enough to get the bonds that you hold, you would need to sell them at A discounted
loss. So in 2022, there was no risk of like principal loss if you had time on your side. But if you’re a retired client
and you’re wondering, I need a hundred grand this year, where do I get it from? Well, you don’t want to take from
equities because they’re down and you can’t take it from bonds.
Speaker 1 – 04:41
So this is I think, why we’re talking about, because historically you hold bonds and stocks because of, you know,
you want correlation differences. So stocks are up, you know, maybe bonds are up or down. If stocks are down,
usually bonds are up. The times have changed because there’s so many factors that are going in the markets. But
this is why it’s so important to have a carefully constructed safe bucket, we’ll call it. So we typically recommend in
that example, if someone’s earning, if someone’s retired, you know, with 2 million bucks, I’m just saying as an
example, they need to pull out $100,000 a year. You know, we’re typically looking at, okay, Social Security is maybe
paying 40, they need 60. So what’s that delta? So seven times at 60, it’s 420.
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Speaker 1 – 05:25
In that case, we’d really recommend that client should probably, would probably be Safe being an 8020 investor. So
80% equities, 20% fixed income. So we have that seven year backup. Several reasons. One, the markets never drop
more than seven years to recover and to the seven years with ladders and duration differences in the bonds you
hold allows you to get through a 2020 and you can cherry pick which bond fund to sell when stocks are down
without a loss. So that’s just very high level basic framing. But now let’s dig into some more details.
Speaker 2 – 05:57
Yeah, I think that when we think about fixed income or bonds, there’s really three main factors that you have to
consider. So you hit on. The first one is duration, second one is interest rate exposure, and the third one is credit
risk. So if we think about duration, I’ll sum this up because you already talked about it, but if you buy a bond, an
individual bond, and in the duration, it’s for five years, let’s say they’re going to pay you 4% for five years, you’re two
years in. So I guess if you were to just hold that for five years, you’re going to get that 4%. Five years is up, they give
you that, you know, that money back, you got 4% along the way.
Speaker 2 – 06:29
If, if in that time period you’re two years in and you’re 4% bond interest rates rise and now you can buy the same
bond that I already own for 5%. I’m going to be forced to sell that at a loss if I have to liquidate it. But again if I hold
it to duration, I’m good. So that’s the first thing you want to manage that needs to be managed is you know if
interest rates are very low. So this is actually what happened to Silicon Valley bank in 2022I think they had long
duration fixed income on their balance sheet at really low interest rates. And then interest rates went up and they
weren’t able to liquidate. If they did, they had to do.
Speaker 1 – 07:07
And everyone wanted to pull their money out because they. And exactly they had they to liquidate they had to take
a big loss because of the market value in those bonds had dropped so much. Now were they safe investments?
Yes, they could be one of these things that you described. If time suddenly changes not on your side, then boom,
you have losses. You need to have those three factors figured out in your portfolio.
Speaker 2 – 07:29
So you can’t have a long duration bond in a low interest rate environment. That’s where you’ll get in trouble. And
then the second one would be interest rate exposure. You want to hit on that?
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Speaker 1 – 07:40
Yeah. So I mean interest rate exposure and this is exactly happened in 2022. But if you have, you know for example
we have here if rates fall 1% so if you’re in a 4% bond paying 5% it drops 4% and has a duration of 6 years. The
bond price is going to, it’s going to fall 6%. So you 100 grand invested in their interest rates fluctuates 1%. You
need to pull that out. You’re going to lose 6,000 doll back in you. Our average duration right now in the portfolio is
pretty short. It’s, it’s you know, low fives like 5.2 to 5.4 years. And we actually looked at the reason for this. If you
look at stock investments over one year periods they’re relatively, it’s a high standard deviation.
Speaker 1 – 08:22
There’s going to be like one out of every four years where maybe you’ll lose money instead of gain money. It just
looking at US stocks if you look at 30 years there’s no 30 year time in history that stocks lost. So this the risk of
holding stock is it goes debt down dramatically. The standard Deviation is like 1 or 2% over 30 year periods. With
bonds it’s the opposite short periods of time. If you have A low duration bond, it’s very low risk. If you have a 30
year duration, the standard deviation is crazy because if you think about interest rates in a CD in a bank in the
1980s, you were getting double digits right now, you know, maybe you’re getting 3 or 4%. So those can fluctuate
absolutely dramatically. And that’s why today we’re in a relatively still.
Speaker 1 – 09:09
And people think, you know, interest rates are high. If you look at, historically they’re moderate, you know, they’re
not high, they’re not low, they’re very, you know, average would say were just, I.
Speaker 2 – 09:19
Think people were just spoiled in 2020, 2021, 2022 with rates being so low and that’s, you know, that’s abnormal.
And a third one’s credit risk. So this one’s important. If you’re buying individual bonds, think of if you know, we’ll use
a corporate bond exam. I mean it could be corporate or municipal. Municipal bonds are generally safer. They can
default. But let’s just say a corporate bond, you know, if you were to buy bond in a, a startup company that would
be, there’d be a much lower credit rating because their likelihood of defaulting is higher versus if you bought a, a
bond in a large cap blue chip US company that’s been around for a long time, has a lot of profits and cash like their
default rate is much lower and then there’s everything in between.
Speaker 2 – 10:05
So all three of those things need to be very carefully managed in any type of bond investment or portfolio.
Speaker 1 – 10:12
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All right, so just to take a quick break for you long term listeners, we have built something we’re really excited
about. So this is a, a box that holds four different decks of cards. We’re huge believers in, you know, financial
literacy. That’s one of the big missions of this podcast is financial literacy and making the complex simple. So the
first deck of cards is going to be wealth resources. And so what this is this some of the favorite podcast episodes
that we’ve recorded and blogs that we’ve written with a QR code on each card to cover each topic that you can
quickly in the morning, if you want something to listen to, hit it with your phone and then, you know, you’re off to
ago the next card. We read and summarized 52 of our favorite books.
Speaker 1 – 10:57
So each one of these cards has a QR code to some of the books that have philosophies that EWA has really taken
to develop the culture that we have of extreme ownership from, you know, the Japanese term called kaizen
continuous improvement. And so these are really five minute reads of, you know, each chapter is summarized list
with the takeaways. We did a book summary and we also did what are the top 10 takeaways for the EWA team
that’s helped shape our thinking, our culture, etc. So want a quick morning read and then I would encourage you if
you do like some of the takeaways, obviously buy the book and read the whole thing. I think, you know, we’re in
front of too many screens in today’s day and age and reading is very beneficial in many ways.
Speaker 1 – 11:35
Okay, third deck is financial questions for adults. So if you’re, you know, dating, married, have a partner, etc, these
are questions that are just meant to spark good financial topics. So you know, money is something that typically is
very taboo. A lot of people are stressed out about money and this is just meant to have very productive
conversations about what are your views on money. And some of these questions, we’ve got feedback already.
They really are catalyst to developing your relationship with money, your relationship with your partner and then
also helping you just develop your own philosophy around how to handle money. Money. And then the last, my
favorite one, this is something I do every morning with my daughter is financial questions for kids.
Speaker 1 – 12:14
So we really have this, you know, between three sets of ages, like 6 to 10, 11 and then a little bit older. And so it’s
never too early to start having financial literacy conversations with your children. So we go through two to three of
these per day. I also journal for clients. Last year we sent a, a branded pen with a journal of what we’re going to
grateful for. So that’s the exercise I take my daughter through every morning. You know, what are the three things
you’re grateful for? And then we’ve added this as part of our morning routine during breakfast is answering a
couple financial questions. So the point is we have, these are gifts we’re giving to our clients this year in 2026.
Speaker 1 – 12:50
But we’ve purposely produced an extra 100 set of these boxes with the four decks of cards I just described. And if
you’re interested, the first hundred we’re going to give at cost. I believe it’ll be on our website if you’re Interested,
email infow llc.
Speaker 2 – 13:05
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Com.
Speaker 1 – 13:05
We’ll drop that right here in the YouTube video so you can see and say I’m interested in purchasing one of the
hundred, you know, collector’s edition of the EWA cards. You don’t have to be a client for those. These are meant to
set aside for long term listeners of the podcast. If you’re interested in eventually working with us, we’ll give these to
you at cost. I think we decided It’ll be like 50 bucks. So back to the regular schedule program. So I think that really
brings us down to the question. If you’re a high net worth investor, you know, should you be purchasing your own
bonds, like individual bonds, you can do ladders, you can do municipals, corporates, or should you be investing in
an ETF or mutual fund that holds the bonds?
Speaker 1 – 13:44
So, James, so give us a difference and you know, what are the pros and the cons and ultimately what do we
recommend?
Speaker 2 – 13:49
Difference is essentially if you buy an individual, we’ll use municipal bonds. For example, if you buy an individual
municipal bond, let’s say, okay, we’re in Pittsburgh here, so we buy a City of Pittsburgh municipal bond. I don’t know
what would it fund? A parking garage or something, right? Could be anything.
Speaker 1 – 14:08
A park or.
Speaker 2 – 14:09
Yeah, a park. And so we buy this bond and we’re going to loan the City of Pittsburgh money for five years, say
$100,000, and they’re going to pay again that 5% or whatever, 5% interest rate. You know, if that project or the City
of Pittsburgh goes under, I guess the project, if it goes under, you lose your money. If you don’t, if it doesn’t, you
finish it, you get your rate back. So that’s one way to do it. You could buy individual bonds in any municipality.
Same thing on a corporate level. In an ETF would be a fund manager doing that, I guess we would say, at scale. So
most ETFs have like, you know, anywhere in the range of like 3 to 5,000 bonds in it. And then that fund manager
think of it as a continuous ladder.
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Speaker 2 – 14:54
So like when a bond comes to maturity in that fund, they just reinvest it again and keep reinvesting it. And so that
fund manager then can manage duration, can manage interest rate risk, can manage credit risk. And then that ETF
or mutual fund is going to trade at a net asset value, so it’s going to have a daily trading price. Whereas the bond,
an individual bond, you still can sell it on a daily basis, but depending on what interest rates are, that’s going to
dictate your sale price. And so I would say the big difference is if you’re going to build, or your advisor, whoever’s
managing is going to build Your own individual bond portfolio, you’re going to need probably at least 50 individual
bonds.
Speaker 2 – 15:37
And what you’re going to be doing is continuous monitoring of like credit risk, what interest rates are doing, the
duration, whereas if you outsource it to an ETF or a mutual fund, they do that for you at a very marginal cost
difference. And we can talk about that. The bigger, the bigger the amount you have in, the more that comes into
play. But it’s essentially for most scenarios, you don’t need to overcomplicate it for such like a very small marginal
gain.
Speaker 1 – 16:05
Yeah. And then is the time, the chaos mentally for you to see, you know, and so most bond portfolios that we’ve
seen held like 20 to 100 holdings. And is that true diversification in the bond world? I mean, if you think about 2008
or if you think about, you know, even 2022. So potentially depending on the rating, are they triple A rate or they
double A rated? What, what’s the rating on those? But you know, an ETF, you just look at like one of the core ETS.
So IUSB, this is an iShares Core Universal. I mean, it holds like 17,000 bonds and it’s a mix between Treasuries, it
has some corporate bonds, you know, FNMAs, some mortgage back. So this is really going to be looking at like,
what is a, what does a bond index look like?
Speaker 1 – 16:59
And this is going to mirror this. But the, what are the fees on this? The fees on this are like six basis points, so
0.06%. So it’s worth having 17,000 diversity. If you think about like one pencil, one company, one bond, you can
snap it in half if you have a hundred wrapped around with rubber bands hard. So you get the diversification. Think
about 17,000 pencils. If one of these things goes, you know, south, you’re not going to notice a difference in your
NAB value. And plus, you can sell this thing anytime. And if, you know, if we look at the last, like five years, like
2025, it’s up 7.38%.
Speaker 1 – 17:32
2024, It did 2.1 very similar with 2023, 6.23% very similar returns compared to, you know, like what the US bond
market index has done over those periods in 2022, just like the AG, it dropped 13%. So you have to be aware of the,
you know, having other positions in your portfolio during those peculiar years where stocks and bonds go down
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and have another option to make it through that year because then it ultimately did come right back.
Speaker 2 – 18:00
Let’s talk about fees for a second. So that’s six base points. You have a million bucks in there. That’s $600 a year. If
you buy individual bonds, there’s a spread when you buy it up front and that can vary that. If you get institutional
pricing, it’s much lower. Well, how do you get institutional pricing? You either have to go through like an institution
or you have to be buying a lot of bonds. We’re talking like 5, 10, $15 million at. And most people can’t do that.
Obviously even if you’re in the high net worth, ultra high net worth, to have that much sitting in fixed income is like
you could, but you may not need to unless you’re spending a ton of money.
Speaker 2 – 18:43
But again that marginal cost, like in this example of a million dollars, the upfront, you could be looking at anywhere
of like 50, 0 to. Again this is so variable depending on the scale. But like 0 to 50 basis points upfront one time. So
again depending on if you’re doing it at a 20, $30 million number, obviously that number is going to be lower and
that could be significantly cheaper than that 6 basis point ongoing amount. But again it’s just, you got to weigh. Do
you want the complexity and monitoring? Do you want to deal with that to have this custom bond portfolio
whereas like you can do it for six basis points to have it totally offloaded.
Speaker 1 – 19:25
Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of families are not solving for six basis points of alpha. They’re solving for you
know, the time, a couple hours which may be worth thousands of dollars per hour for simplification, avoiding
chaos. So we’re obviously proponents of investing in a low cost bond portfolio of the ETFs and including as part of
the financial plan. The other, you know, consideration is if you’re in a high state in like California or New York. So
first of all I would say, you know, this should never be a consideration because I mean typically you want if you a
good financial plan. And I’ll just talk about myself personally. Like I don’t hold, I’m young so I don’t hold any bonds
but my safe money. That’s not true. I do have some, you know, some Treasuries.
Speaker 1 – 20:11
But the, in the reality is the safe money is I, I keep in Thai life insurance cause it’s available, it has no interest rate
risk. There’s, there’s downsides, there’s fees obviously. But you know, I have a Young daughter I want to protect. But
there’s asset protection to that. There’s no interest rate risk, meaning I can, if typically I’m going to use safe money,
I’m going to replenish it. So I can take that out without interest rate risk, borrow against it, put it right back in. The
spread is, you know, and the cost is very low and there’s no market in 2022 I could have done that without
experiencing a 13% drop. I can take it out, put it right back in. And then in a non qualified environment, that’s where
I want to hold all my stocks. Right.
Speaker 1 – 20:49
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So long term either your tax loss harvesting, you’re avoiding taxes and any kind of growth that you leave in there
because when you tax loss harvesting, you know, you’re resetting basis. When I ultimately if I keep principle in
place, my beneficiary is going to step up in basis when I die. So then that’s a way to just never pay tax on
unqualified. And if you do hold bonds, you know, Treasuries, corporate bonds, which are typically going to yield
higher than municipals, hold those in your qualified accounts which are already going to be tax deferred. So
ultimately we wouldn’t want to hold those in a Roth ira. So we want explosive growth in the Roth ira. So that’s
where we want equities.
Speaker 1 – 21:25
But if we’re going to hold bonds, especially if you’re retired or close, when you retire, you want to hold them in your
qualified account. So the whole New York, California high state tax becomes another reason why to hold stocks in
your non qualified account. And, and if you’re going to avoid taxes and bonds, you have to hold a municipal bond
specific to that state.
Speaker 2 – 21:43
Yeah, I just say the only one off would be like, let’s say we use California for example because obviously a lot of
wealth being created. But if you are a founder or you’re in a, you know, key employee in like a tech company or
something and you get a big liquidation event by nature, a lot of your assets are going to be in the non qualified
category. We see this all the time. You know, they’re very one off situations. But like in that example, you may not
be able to hold the corporate bonds in your qualified accounts because you just might not have enough money in
there. And so that would be like maybe the only one off situation. If you’re like well I have to pay a 13% state tax on
any interest I would have in this bond fund.
Speaker 2 – 22:29
Like yeah, maybe you would buy a locally owned or state owned.
Speaker 1 – 22:32
And that way, you know, if you keep your money in a bank, even the interest you’re gonna earn, you’re paying
probably for a top tax rate 37 PL states now it’s like you’re almost given half of your growth away, you know. So if
you want to keep a lot of liquidity and you feel safe with the California municipals, you know, that would be a good
option to avoid the taxes. But you’re not going to get the FDIC coverage on that. You’re going to get spic if you hold
that with a big, you know, institution but you know, above that, you know, typically half a million dollar protection,
you’re still going to be subject to the backing of the municipalities that you’re investing in.
Speaker 2 – 23:04
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So definitely do it in an IRA or 401k if you have the option. It’s much more efficient.
Speaker 1 – 23:09
Most of your money invested in equities, you know, have lines of credit against the equity. So if things do occur,
you know, they, you can quick learn, come in and out, you know, high income to replenish. Don’t carry a lot of
money in bonds. If you’re a retiree, we want to have that, you know, that gap between what you need to live off of
and any fixed income sources. We want, we do want to have that seven year safety. On that seven year safety. My
ideal situation, we’d have one, you know, about three years of cash available inside of insurance contract. We’d
have had to, you know, start a long time ago. No interest rate risk. We’re borrowing from that in a 2022 type
scenario.
Speaker 1 – 23:46
And we want the other four years in a bond portfolio that has that average five to five and a half year duration. But
also that you have different bond funds that make up that five and a five year duration. So even if the 2022, 2008
happens, you have the optionality to get through that year without a loss. And so that’s important of not only just
having that safe money, but how you invest underlying that portfolio, how you make up that five and a half year
duration can make all the difference if your plan is live, meaning you’re actively distributing money out of the
portfolio. Sometimes people think they have to be more complex and a lot of times that can hurt returns. So
complexity can hurt returns when you factor in, you know, your time.
Speaker 1 – 24:29
If you try to get too fancy, I mean in the equity investing, I mean like Warren Buffett, that I forget how many hedge
fund managers like I’m invest SB 500 and I’m going to beat you over this period of time. And he like crushed all of
them. Same thing with bonds. Like you’re not, there’s not a lot of delta or alpha to get individual bonds get the
spreads right, you know, get most of the time you’re getting scraps on the table because like pension funds, big
institutions, they’re going to grab those AAA rated when they’re issued. And so, you know, do you have the time to
manage that when this is just should be a small part of your portfolio. This is one thing where you’re not, you know,
outsourcing and simplification and making sure the bonds are doing their job description.
Speaker 1 – 25:15
They’re meant to be the steady Eddie boring to allow your, you know, your true wealth to be created in ownership.
Speaker 2 – 25:22
Yeah. And one more thing I just thought of too. Like you could go out and find some crazy fund manager to
manage your bonds and do some crazy laddering like this. Number one, it’s probably pretty expensive. You’re going
to have to pay them like for someone to engage on that level of just bond management, like they got to be paid to
do it. And then the second thing would be they’re probably not doing any like most likely not doing holistic financial
planning. So like if someone’s that narrow on some sort of bond portfolio construction, like my opinion would be
you want your advisor and your team to like do what’s important and do the financial planning, the estate planning,
the taxes, all the other stuff. And like that is something that you just doesn’t need to be a high cost or complexity.
Speaker 1 – 26:07
No question. No question. Well, thanks for joining us everybody and look forward to catching everyone next week.